metanymous в Metapractice (оригинал в ЖЖ)
Моделируем "meta experience" | |||||
2. What is the Experience of “Meta” | 2 | metanymous | |||
1. Онтология "meta experience" | 105 | metanymous |
Сводная тема | |||||
46. ЦИ-модификация мета-модели НЛП-1 | meta_eugzol | ||||
44. Транс-деривационный процесс – Декодер - Диалектика | metanymous | ||||
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1. Онтология "meta experience" | metanymous | ||||
ДЕКОДЕРНАЯ Траектория Внимания является Мета Опытом. | metanymous | ||||
META N+1; META N-1; META N~N+1 | metanymous | ||||
А. Кёстлер. ОБЩИЕ СВОЙСТВА ОТКРЫТЫХ ИЕРАРХИЧЕСКИХ СИСТ | metanymous | ||||
Uptime | |||||
19. Резюмирование некоторых обсуждений и личного опыта | meta_eugzol | ||||
Структура звукового мира | |||||
1. Кузнечики и цикады | metanymous | ||||
Якорение | |||||
25.3. NLP: Volume I: 6.1 Инсталляция (КГД-стратегий) через якорение. | metanymous | ||||
Моделируем Сущностную Трансформацию | |||||
7. Сортировка частей | metanymous | ||||
Иное моделирование | |||||
28. Нейро-эпистемология по-Коржибскому | vseslavrus |
Моделируем глазодвигатели | |||||
35. Влияние ключевых КГД на элементы рисунка/ возможные связи выше | metanymous | ||||
Личностно-ориентированные конкретно vs абстрактно. Д | metanymous | ||||
Моделируем "meta experience" | |||||
2. What is the Experience of “Meta” | metanymous | ||||
1. Онтология "meta experience" | metanymous | ||||
ДЕКОДЕРНАЯ Траектория Внимания является Мета Опытом. | metanymous | ||||
META N+1; META N-1; META N~N+1 | metanymous | ||||
«Холоны» не «состояния». «Состояния» не «переживания» | metanymous | ||||
Ценностные Иерархии | |||||
56. Любая иерархия ЧА есть именно Ценностная Иерархия | meta_eugzol |
Posted by: Steve Andreas in: Articles
What is the Experience of “Meta”?
In the past, you and I have had significantly different fundamental understandings on a number of issues that could be the basis for a public dialogue between us, such as:
1. Whether or not it is important to distinguish between two uses of “meta” to refer to large scope (“the big picture”) or general category — a topic I explored at length in my Six Blind Elephants books.
2. My description of your concept of “layering” as the reverse of nested categories in the logical levels of naïve set theory, as set forth in Elephants, pp. 114-116
3. Whether Submodalities are meta or subdivisions of scopes of experience.
Of course you may have changed your views on one or more of these issues, or you might prefer to choose others. Assuming we could agree on an interesting issue on which we have differing views, I have some fairly specific ideas about how to create a respectful dialogue to avoid misunderstandings, side issues, etc.
Privately one of us would write up a position statement on the selected issue, and the other would respond to it in writing. Then we would each edit or revise our positions until we are both satisfied that we have had an opportunity to present our position fully, respond fully to the other’s position, and that we each understand the other clearly, to avoid problems like, “Well, that’s not what I said,” or “That’s what I said, but what I really meant was—” etc. This would also be an opportunity for each of us to notice any “ad hominem” arguments or other logical fallacies, and remove them.
After we are both satisfied with the result of this process, we would jointly offer this to the public (the summit group, your and my blogs) and invite comments from others.
I think this could serve as an example of working toward clarification or resolution of important issues that currently divide or confuse the field. Please let me know if you might be interested in joining with me on this, and/or if you have other views on how we could better accomplish the goal of presenting contrasting views in a way that could provide a productive dialogue.
Michael agreed in principle, and sent me a number of different extensive position statements on the meaning of “Meta,” and I take this as an invitation to focus on this topic. I prefer to begin with a more concise statement for our dialogue, but other writing projects (and my struggle with greatly diminished energy due to Parkinson’s disease) have delayed me until now. ... http://realpeoplepress.com/blog/what-is-the-experience-of-meta?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SteveAndreasNlpBlog+%28Steve+Andreas%27+NLP+Blog%29
104 комментария
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Steve Andreas
I want to start with a brief exploration of how prepositions work, because this provides a basis for understanding the experience of the word “meta.” Notice your image in response to the sentence, “She is on the bed,” and compare that with your images for the same sentence, but replacing the word “on” with “off,” “in,” “under,” “beside,” or “behind.” . . .
Next, notice your image of the sentence, “Buy some groceries before you drive home,” and compare that with your images for the same sentence, but replacing “before” with “after,” “when,” or “as.”
A “pre position” positions two things (“she” and “bed”) with respect to each other in space, or two activities (buying groceries” and “driving home”) with respect to each other in time.
In NLP generally, and in Michael’s writing, the prefix “meta” is used for many different experiences, with the general meaning of “about,” such as “meta-position,” “meta-model,” “meta-communication.” If you look up synonyms for “meta,” the most common is “about,” a preposition.
“About” has one meaning that is explicitly about location, as in “She looked about the room,” or “His things were scattered about.” A second, more general meaning is “on the subject of” or “concerning,” as in, “I was thinking about you,” in which some thing or event is described from a different position in space or time.
In one very interesting subset of uses the prefix “meta-” is self-referential, “about its own category,” “an X about X.” Meta-cognition is cognition about cognition, “meta-emotion” is emotion about emotion, “meta-discussion” is a discussion about discussion.
In the early days of NLP the prefix “meta” served a useful purpose, directing attention to important elements of communication that had been ignored. However there are now so many different meanings of the word “meta” that it has become almost meaningless.
I want to explore three very different kinds of experiences of “meta” or “about,” each of which has specific, but very different therapeutic uses. (There may be a number of other kinds of meta experiences, but three are adequate for my purpose, which is to demonstrate how ambiguous the word is.)
Experiment 2
Begin by thinking of someone you have strong feelings about — either positive or negative. . . .
Now imagine that person fairly close to you in a specific context, and notice both what your image of this person looks like, and your feelings toward them. . . .
Now describe that person with a more general word such as “man,” or “woman,” or a word that describes that person’s occupation, and notice how that image changes, and how you feel toward that changed image. . . .
Now use an even more general word, such as “mammal,” and notice how the image, and your response to the image changes. . . .
Next use the word “vertebrate” and notice how your image and response changes. . . .
Next use the word “animal,” and notice the changes. . . .
Next use “organism,” and notice the changes. . . .
Finally, notice what image and response you have to a “flow of energy and information.” . . .
As you went through this process of going from a very specific and “concrete” image to a much more abstract and general one, I want to point out three things:
1) Classify. “The context (or meta-message) classifies the message…” (Bateson, 1972, p. 247). “In human life … there occur signals whose major function is to classify contexts” … context markers (Bateson, 1972, p. 289). With each new frame we simultaneously set an internal context for our experience. Each meta-level is simultaneously a meta-state, named by some meta-term, a frame, an inner context.
2) Qualify. “All messages and parts of messages are like phrases or segments of equations which a mathematician puts in brackets. Outside the brackets there may always be a qualifier or multiplier which will alter the whole tenor of the phrase.” (Bateson, 1972, p. 232). As a higher level is set to classify members of the set, it modulates and qualifies their members.
3) Govern. “… in the process of therapy, there must have been communication at a level meta to these rules. There must have been communication about a change in rules.” (Bateson, 1972, p. 191). The higher modulates the lower as the bias set in a thermostat controls the range of flexibility of temperature in a room.
4) Expand Perspective. The process of moving up to a meta or higher level simultaneously expands one’s perspective. When a person moves from a particular to more general and abstract level (the class or category), the person at the same time gains a broader perspective of a large horizon.
5) Gestalt and Emergence. The process of “going meta” is not always additive, in fact, it is more typically exponential. It multiples things so that a gestalt experience arises. Then something “more than and different from the sum of the parts” arise. This is an emergent property in a system of multiple variables. Many complex states (courage, forgiveness, self-esteem, seeing opportunity, etc.) are gestalt states.
“The informational effects between levels and types is called feedback and is probably the major distinguishing feature of cybernetic systems.” (1983: 39)
“Differences of the same or different logical type interacting at different levels (hierarchical or logical respectively) will result in the modulation of the difference on the lower level.” (1983: 49)
Gregory Bateson:
A Logical Type: 1) The name is not the thing named but is of different logical type, higher than the thing named. 2) The class is of different logical type, higher than that of its members. (Mary Catherine Bateson, 1987, pp. 209-210).
Criteria for “logical levels:”
In the index of Bateson’s book Mind and Nature (1979), he writes this under the list of “Logical Types.” A series of examines is in order:
In another place Bateson defined logical types in the following way:
Logical Type: 1) The name is not the thing named but is of different logical type, higher than the thing named. 2) The class is of different logical type, higher than that of its members. (Mary Catherine Bateson, 1987, pp. 209-210).
In Steps to an Ecology of Mind (1972/2000), Bateson defines “logical types” in terms of levels of abstraction and quotes Korzybski’s map-territory distinction (p. 180). The following highlights his use of levels and types.
“… a frame is meta-communicative. Any message, which either explicitly or implicitly defines a frame, ipso facto gives the receiver instructions or aids in his attempt to understand the message included within the frame.
… Every meta-communicative or meta-linguistic message defines, either explicitly or implicitly, the set of messages about which it communicates, i.e., every meta-communicative message is or defines a psychological frame. (p. 188)
“No class can be a member of itself. The picture frame then, because it delimits a background, is here regarded as an external representation of a very special and important type of psychological frame — namely a frame whose function is to delimit a logical type.” (189)
In his chapter “Toward a Theory of Schizophrenia” Bateson describes “how humans handle communication involving multiple Logical Types” (p. 203). In that section he writes the following:
“Multiple levels of learning and the Logical Typing of signals. These are two inseparable sets of phenomena — inseparable because the ability to handle the multiple types of signals is itself a learned skill and therefore a function of the multiple levels of learning.” (204)
From Mind and Nature (1979), Bateson defines “mind” as involving processes of transformation that discloses “a hierarchy of logical types immanent in the phenomena.” (p. 122).
“I shall try to drive home the importance of this criterion by exhibiting cases in which the discrimination of levels of communication has been so confused or distorted that various sorts of frustration and pathology have been the result.” (122)
He then speaks about signals that we emit and then about another class of information that tells us about the coding of messages or indications from the person. These he calls meta-messages (p. 122-123). In so explaining “logical types” he then says,
“All this is premised on the existence of levels whose nature I am here trying to make clear. We start with a potential differentiation between action in context and action or behavior which defines context or makes context intelligible. … I refer to the latter type of communication as meta-communication… A function, an effect, of the meta-message is in fact to classify the messages that occur within its contexts.” (p. 124).
“The more appropriate question would be: At what level of logical typing does genetic command act in the determining of this characteristic? The answer to this question will always take the form: At one logical level higher than the observed ability of the organism to achieve learning or bodily change by somatic process.” (175)
“In sum, each of these disasters will be found to contain an error in logical typing. In spite of immediate gain at one logical level, the sign is reversed and benefit becomes calamity in some other, larger and longer, context.” (189)
In describing the “levels of control of house temperature” Bateson used arrows to mark the direction of control in the system. It zigzagged from Personal status to Genetics and training to personal threshold, to “too cold” or “too hot” to bias to oscillating temperature. To all of this Bateson commented:
“With each zigzag of the ladder, the sphere of relevance increases. In other words, there is a change in logical typing of the information collected by the sense organ at each level.” (215)
“To jump downward two or more steps in the hierarchy is likewise undesirable … the effect of any such jumping of levels, upward or downward, is that information appropriate as a basis for decision at one level will be used as basis for decision at some other level, a common variety of error in logical typing.” (216)
What a respectful and educational format. I hope NLP as a group learn from this and adopt it when discussing differences in the future. Thank you, Steve and Michael, for your discussion and with best wishes, :-)
Uptime (19) Резюмирование некоторых обсуждений и личного опыта
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/524252.html
http://ljsearch.metapractice.ru/?_utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%D0%90%D0%9F%D0%A2%D0%90%D0%99%D0%9C&mode=exact&in=everything&journals%5B%5D=metapractice&user=
Моделируем Сущностную Трансформацию (7) сортировка частей
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/337388.html
http://ljsearch.metapractice.ru/?_utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5+%D0%BE%D1%89%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5&mode=simple&journals%5B%5D=metapractice&user=
«Карта не является территорией, но ее полезность определяется структурным подобием с территорией».
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/296407.html
Металог
http://ljsearch.metapractice.ru/?_utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3&mode=exact&in=titles&journals%5B%5D=metapractice&user=
"Форма и паттерн в антропологии"/Бейтсон: "Шаги к экологии разума"
"Смысл" можно рассматривать как приблизительный синоним слов "паттерн", "избыточность", "информация" и как ограничение внутри следующей парадигмы.
Следует считать, что некоторый конгломерат событий или объектов (например, последовательность фонем, картина, лягушка или культура) содержит "избыточность" ("паттерн"), если этот конгломерат некоторым способом может быть разделен "чертой" таким образом, что наблюдатель, воспринимающий только то, что находится по одну сторону этой черты, может догадаться (с успехом, превышающим случайный), что же находится по другую сторону черты. Мы можем сказать, что то, что находится по одну сторону черты, содержит информацию (смысл) того, что находится по другую сторону. На инженерном языке можно сказать, что конгломерат содержит "избыточность". С точки зрения наблюдателя-кибернетика, информация, доступная по одну сторону черты, будет ограничивать ошибочное угадывание (т.е. снижать его вероятность).
…
«Ценностные иерархии потребительских выборов и гендерные различия».
http://vestnik.nspu.ru/article/66
Ценностные Иерархии (55) Мета-моделирование АЛЬТЕРНАТИВ
https://metapractice.livejournal.com/571749.html