Francine Shapiro. Interviewed by Bill O’Hanlon
metanymous в Metapractice (оригинал в ЖЖ)
Моделируем EMDR, выпуск 17
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| 18. НЛП, EMDR, ECEM, EMI, EMDR-НЛП-ЭГ | metanymous | ||||
| Моделируем EMDR | |||||
| 16. Агентство "Крестный Отец". | metanymous | ||||
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| 18. НЛП, EMDR, ECEM, EMI, EMDR-НЛП-ЭГ | metanymous | ||||
http://erickson-foundation.org/docs/Vol-34-No-3.pdf
https://yadi.sk/i/P4bFzhzLdxo7e
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Francine Shapiro, PhD, is the originator and developer of EMDR, which has been designated as an effective trauma treatment by a wide range of organizations, including the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization. She is a Senior Research Fellow Emeritus at the Mental Research Institute in Palo Alto, California, Director of the EMDR Institute, and founder of the non-profit EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Programs (HAP), which provides pro bonotraining and treatment to underserved populations worldwide. HAP is now an international NGO in Special Consultative Status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), and has received an award for Clinical Excellence from the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies. Dr. Shapiro is a recipient of the International Sigmund Freud Award for Psychotherapy, presented by the City of Vienna in conjunction with the World Council for Psychotherapy and the American Psychological Association Trauma Psychology Division Award for Outstanding Contributions to Practice in Trauma Psychology. Her books include, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing: Basic Principles, Protocols and Procedures; Handbook of EMDR and Family Therapy Processes; EMDR as an Integrative Psychotherapy Approach; and Getting Past Your Past.
--Bill O’Hanlon: You had a health crisis that led to you becoming a psychologist. Is that right?
--Francine Shapiro: I was about 30 years old. I was finishing up a PhD in English literature and then I got cancer. Norman Cousins’ work was coming out at that time on the effect of stress on the immune system. It made sense. The principles seemed valid but there weren’t techniques widely available to help. I remember thinking: ‘If we’re putting men on the moon, how come we weren’t able to deal with our minds and bodies?’ I had been out to California previously and it seemed cutting-edge approaches were available.
So I left my PhD program and went to California to look for answers. I attended workshops on body work and applied kinesiology, hypnosis, and meditation - a whole slew of things. Then I decided to look at the formal field of psychology and entered a PhD program. I had no intention of becoming a psychologist. I just wanted to see what the principles might be. My goal was to find out what works and get it out to the general public.
One day, I took a walk in the parkand noticed the effect of eye movements on myself. I wasn’t looking at anything, just walking, and I noticed that disturbing thoughts were disappearing. When I brought them back, they didn’t have the same charge. So I started paying close attention because I had been using my own mind and body as a laboratory for the past seven years. I noticed that when a disturbing thought came to mind, my eyes started moving y rapidly in a certain way, and I noticed the thought shifting.
Again, when I brought it back, it didn’t bother me anymore. I wondered if I could do it deliberately. So I brought up something that bothered me, moved my eyes in the same way, and I got the same results.
When I established that I could do it for myself, I wanted to see if it could work with anyone else. I gathered every warm body I could lay my hands on - people at school, folks I knew, and asked, “Do you have anything you want to work on that’s bothering you?” Not surprisingly, everyone did. I showed them how my eyes had moved, asked them to think of the disturbance and move their eyes, but found out most people didn’t have the muscle control to do it.
So I said, “Follow my fingers with your eyes.” I started guiding them, and I found that the eye movements began to take away anxiety, but it would often stop. So I started developing procedures to make the eye movements more effective.
--Francine Shapiro: I was about 30 years old. I was finishing up a PhD in English literature and then I got cancer. Norman Cousins’ work was coming out at that time on the effect of stress on the immune system. It made sense. The principles seemed valid but there weren’t techniques widely available to help. I remember thinking: ‘If we’re putting men on the moon, how come we weren’t able to deal with our minds and bodies?’ I had been out to California previously and it seemed cutting-edge approaches were available.
So I left my PhD program and went to California to look for answers. I attended workshops on body work and applied kinesiology, hypnosis, and meditation - a whole slew of things. Then I decided to look at the formal field of psychology and entered a PhD program. I had no intention of becoming a psychologist. I just wanted to see what the principles might be. My goal was to find out what works and get it out to the general public.
One day, I took a walk in the parkand noticed the effect of eye movements on myself. I wasn’t looking at anything, just walking, and I noticed that disturbing thoughts were disappearing. When I brought them back, they didn’t have the same charge. So I started paying close attention because I had been using my own mind and body as a laboratory for the past seven years. I noticed that when a disturbing thought came to mind, my eyes started moving y rapidly in a certain way, and I noticed the thought shifting.
Again, when I brought it back, it didn’t bother me anymore. I wondered if I could do it deliberately. So I brought up something that bothered me, moved my eyes in the same way, and I got the same results.
When I established that I could do it for myself, I wanted to see if it could work with anyone else. I gathered every warm body I could lay my hands on - people at school, folks I knew, and asked, “Do you have anything you want to work on that’s bothering you?” Not surprisingly, everyone did. I showed them how my eyes had moved, asked them to think of the disturbance and move their eyes, but found out most people didn’t have the muscle control to do it.
So I said, “Follow my fingers with your eyes.” I started guiding them, and I found that the eye movements began to take away anxiety, but it would often stop. So I started developing procedures to make the eye movements more effective.
--BOH: Initially you named this EMD, and then as you worked on these protocols you added another element. Why the R?
--FS: Because at first, coming from a behavioral therapy vantage point, I was thinking in terms of decreasing anxiety. I thought I was doing the equivalent of systematic desensitization while using the brain’s own mechanism for it. It seemed like it might be linked with REM sleep, which is when those kinds of rapid saccadic eye movements would often spontaneously go back to a past event, and there we are in psychodynamic territory. I discovered that it was easier and more efficient if I started with the past. If I cleaned that out, generally the present didn’t bother them any longer.
--FS: Because at first, coming from a behavioral therapy vantage point, I was thinking in terms of decreasing anxiety. I thought I was doing the equivalent of systematic desensitization while using the brain’s own mechanism for it. It seemed like it might be linked with REM sleep, which is when those kinds of rapid saccadic eye movements would often spontaneously go back to a past event, and there we are in psychodynamic territory. I discovered that it was easier and more efficient if I started with the past. If I cleaned that out, generally the present didn’t bother them any longer.
--BOH: Initially you named this EMD, and then as you worked on these protocols you added another element. Why the R?
--FS: Because at first, coming from a behavioral therapy vantage point, I was thinking in terms of decreasing anxiety. I thought I was doing the equivalent of systematic desensitization while using the brain’s own mechanism for it. It seemed like it might be linked with REM sleep, which is when those kinds of rapid saccadic eye movements also occur. I tested the procedure in a randomized study and when it was published in 1989, it was called EMD, Eye Movement Desensitization, focused on getting rid of anxiety.
But as I continued working with the procedures, I noticed that if I let it keep going, new associations were occurring. Emotions were changing dramatically from anxiety to sadness to joy. There were cognitive and emotional changes when I allowed this association process to take place.
--BOH: When you say cognitive, just to clarify: self-talk, beliefs…?
--FS: Yes. People’s beliefs would au-tomatically shift.
--BOH: So those beliefs that used to occur automatically were suddenly new beliefs that were more helpful, less self-condemning, less fearful?
--FS: Yes. If I let the associations move, people were getting insights about themselves, about whatever they were dealing with. And it wasn’t just anxiety that was changing, it was guilt, shame; all the negative feelings moved into healthier emotions. What I was seeing was spontaneous and simultaneous changes in emotion, belief, and somatic responses. I also discovered that if I started with a present issue, it would often spontaneously go back to a past event, and there we are in psychodynamic territory. I discovered that it was easier and more efficient if I started with the past. If I cleaned that out, generally the present didn’t bother them any longer.
--FS: Because at first, coming from a behavioral therapy vantage point, I was thinking in terms of decreasing anxiety. I thought I was doing the equivalent of systematic desensitization while using the brain’s own mechanism for it. It seemed like it might be linked with REM sleep, which is when those kinds of rapid saccadic eye movements also occur. I tested the procedure in a randomized study and when it was published in 1989, it was called EMD, Eye Movement Desensitization, focused on getting rid of anxiety.
But as I continued working with the procedures, I noticed that if I let it keep going, new associations were occurring. Emotions were changing dramatically from anxiety to sadness to joy. There were cognitive and emotional changes when I allowed this association process to take place.
--BOH: When you say cognitive, just to clarify: self-talk, beliefs…?
--FS: Yes. People’s beliefs would au-tomatically shift.
--BOH: So those beliefs that used to occur automatically were suddenly new beliefs that were more helpful, less self-condemning, less fearful?
--FS: Yes. If I let the associations move, people were getting insights about themselves, about whatever they were dealing with. And it wasn’t just anxiety that was changing, it was guilt, shame; all the negative feelings moved into healthier emotions. What I was seeing was spontaneous and simultaneous changes in emotion, belief, and somatic responses. I also discovered that if I started with a present issue, it would often spontaneously go back to a past event, and there we are in psychodynamic territory. I discovered that it was easier and more efficient if I started with the past. If I cleaned that out, generally the present didn’t bother them any longer.
--BOH: It generalized out to several things, sometimes things you’d never even talked about?
--FS: Exactly. So I added the Reprocessing around 1990 in order to demonstrate that it was more than just Eye Movement Desensitization. If I had it to do over again, I’d call it Reprocessing Therapy. Unfortunately, it’s too late. But, to be clear, EMDR is now an eight-phase psychotherapy with a wide range of applications.
--BOH: There seems to be two themes: one is practical and experiential, and the other is, “Let’s look at the evidence.” Why did you put so much emphasis on doing scientific research?
--FS: The way to alleviate suffering is to rigorously evaluate what you’re doing. In the first study, results could have been due to characteristics of me as a therapist. The replication studies were extremely important to prove that it worked. I ended up being invited to a variety of VAs and agencies. We would give free trainings if they were going to do research. We continue to do that to this day. Unfortunately, some of the early studies were done badly, so it needed a lot of additional research to convince people that it actually worked. At this point there are about 24 randomized studies on the effect of EMDR therapy with a wide range of trauma victims. The World Health Organization has now stated there are only two validated approaches for the treatment of PTSD in children, adolescents and adults: trauma-focused CBTand EMDR therapy. That’s because of the research base.
--FS: Exactly. So I added the Reprocessing around 1990 in order to demonstrate that it was more than just Eye Movement Desensitization. If I had it to do over again, I’d call it Reprocessing Therapy. Unfortunately, it’s too late. But, to be clear, EMDR is now an eight-phase psychotherapy with a wide range of applications.
--BOH: There seems to be two themes: one is practical and experiential, and the other is, “Let’s look at the evidence.” Why did you put so much emphasis on doing scientific research?
--FS: The way to alleviate suffering is to rigorously evaluate what you’re doing. In the first study, results could have been due to characteristics of me as a therapist. The replication studies were extremely important to prove that it worked. I ended up being invited to a variety of VAs and agencies. We would give free trainings if they were going to do research. We continue to do that to this day. Unfortunately, some of the early studies were done badly, so it needed a lot of additional research to convince people that it actually worked. At this point there are about 24 randomized studies on the effect of EMDR therapy with a wide range of trauma victims. The World Health Organization has now stated there are only two validated approaches for the treatment of PTSD in children, adolescents and adults: trauma-focused CBTand EMDR therapy. That’s because of the research base.
--BOH: Is there a place where people can go if they want to check out the research?
--FS: The EMDR HAP website: www.emdrhap.org/content/what-is-emdr/research-findings/
--BOH: Because I’ve known you for years and followed your work, it’s surprising to me that people have dismissed your work and attacked not only the work but sometimes you. Let’s talk about some of those dismissals and how you responded and overcame them.
--FS: The problems started early on because they were doing research that used EMD or EMDR procedures with and without the eye movement. However, they often did it badly. Those earlier studies were evaluated in 2000 by the task force of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, and were deemed inadequate because they used inappropriate populations and not enough treatment, such as multiple traumatized combat veterans, and they only gave them two sessions. Instead of using the 35 clients in each condition that was supposed to be done, they’d use only seven or eight. The researchers weren’t doing it with appropriate fidelity checks. There was a ream of stuff going on, because back then, there was no gold standard to define how you’re supposed to do research.
For instance, when an intern who had never done therapy did a study with multiple traumatized combat veterans, the supervisor told him he wasn’t doing EMDR correctly, but it got published in the Journal of Behavior Therapy with negative results. So I asked a researcher I knew in the VA, “How is it possible that something gets published with a negative fidelity check?” He said, “Oh, well, we never use them.” That taught me that all the previous decades of psychological research really weren’t telling us anything, because no one had checked to make sure that the researcher had done the therapy the way it’s supposed to be done in clinical practice.
--FS: The EMDR HAP website: www.emdrhap.org/content/what-is-emdr/research-findings/
--BOH: Because I’ve known you for years and followed your work, it’s surprising to me that people have dismissed your work and attacked not only the work but sometimes you. Let’s talk about some of those dismissals and how you responded and overcame them.
--FS: The problems started early on because they were doing research that used EMD or EMDR procedures with and without the eye movement. However, they often did it badly. Those earlier studies were evaluated in 2000 by the task force of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, and were deemed inadequate because they used inappropriate populations and not enough treatment, such as multiple traumatized combat veterans, and they only gave them two sessions. Instead of using the 35 clients in each condition that was supposed to be done, they’d use only seven or eight. The researchers weren’t doing it with appropriate fidelity checks. There was a ream of stuff going on, because back then, there was no gold standard to define how you’re supposed to do research.
For instance, when an intern who had never done therapy did a study with multiple traumatized combat veterans, the supervisor told him he wasn’t doing EMDR correctly, but it got published in the Journal of Behavior Therapy with negative results. So I asked a researcher I knew in the VA, “How is it possible that something gets published with a negative fidelity check?” He said, “Oh, well, we never use them.” That taught me that all the previous decades of psychological research really weren’t telling us anything, because no one had checked to make sure that the researcher had done the therapy the way it’s supposed to be done in clinical practice.
--BOH: So you made a commitment to make sure the people who do this research are well trained and that the research is solid.
--FS: Yes. Controversy about the eye movement being bogus is based on those early negative studies, but since then…
--BOH: More studies have comein, and they’re legitimate, valid, well-designed studies with people who knew how to do the procedure.
--FS: And a new meta-analysis just came out that evaluated the various studies and demonstrated definitively that the eye movements do add to it. One of the research supported hypotheses revealed that it indeed seems to link into the same processes that occur during rapid eye movement sleep. Another 12 studies have been done supporting another hypothesis - that it taxes working memory. I believe both of them are true. They just come in at different times during the therapy.
--BOH: So the procedure’s been validated, there are more studies going on, and hypotheses are still being investigated. Let’s address dismissals of the work. “It’s just hypnosis.” What do you say to that?
--FS: Well, it’s simply not. It’s a different brain state. There was a study that compared brain states between EMDR therapy and hypnosis.
--FS: Yes. Controversy about the eye movement being bogus is based on those early negative studies, but since then…
--BOH: More studies have comein, and they’re legitimate, valid, well-designed studies with people who knew how to do the procedure.
--FS: And a new meta-analysis just came out that evaluated the various studies and demonstrated definitively that the eye movements do add to it. One of the research supported hypotheses revealed that it indeed seems to link into the same processes that occur during rapid eye movement sleep. Another 12 studies have been done supporting another hypothesis - that it taxes working memory. I believe both of them are true. They just come in at different times during the therapy.
--BOH: So the procedure’s been validated, there are more studies going on, and hypotheses are still being investigated. Let’s address dismissals of the work. “It’s just hypnosis.” What do you say to that?
--FS: Well, it’s simply not. It’s a different brain state. There was a study that compared brain states between EMDR therapy and hypnosis.
--BOH: So, it’s just placebo?
--FS: The two dozen randomized studies show it’s not.
--BOH: This isn’t a dismissal, but sometimes it was lumped in with another rapid trauma treatment that came out around that same time known as “tapping.”
--FS: The effects are quite different, and there also isn’t research in support of that.
--BOH: They’re just starting to do some research, but they didn’t emphasize it, which was one of the contrasts I wanted to make. Early on you said, “Let’s do research,” and they said, “No, it works in clinical use. That’s all we need to do.”
--FS: What you see that’s also different with EMDR therapy is that you get pronounced cognitive changes and insights going on as you do it. The disturbing event becomes a source of resilience. With EMDR therapy, if you have a single trauma victim with PTSD, the research indicates that 84percent to 100 percent of single trauma victims no longer have PTSD after the equivalent of three 90-minute sessions. And it lasts in follow-ups, so you don’t have to keep redoing it.
--FS: The two dozen randomized studies show it’s not.
--BOH: This isn’t a dismissal, but sometimes it was lumped in with another rapid trauma treatment that came out around that same time known as “tapping.”
--FS: The effects are quite different, and there also isn’t research in support of that.
--BOH: They’re just starting to do some research, but they didn’t emphasize it, which was one of the contrasts I wanted to make. Early on you said, “Let’s do research,” and they said, “No, it works in clinical use. That’s all we need to do.”
--FS: What you see that’s also different with EMDR therapy is that you get pronounced cognitive changes and insights going on as you do it. The disturbing event becomes a source of resilience. With EMDR therapy, if you have a single trauma victim with PTSD, the research indicates that 84percent to 100 percent of single trauma victims no longer have PTSD after the equivalent of three 90-minute sessions. And it lasts in follow-ups, so you don’t have to keep redoing it.
--BOH: So it’s taken from NLP?
--FS: Well, you know NLP…
--BOH: I do, so I guess I can speak to it. I did learn a procedure in NLP of having people watch their eye movements while they were describing the problem, and then have them do different eye movements. But when I learned EMDR, it was a whole different procedure, which seemed to work a lot faster and a lot more consistently. All right, once you figured out this worked and the research started to come in, you then created an orientation toward charitable service in the wake of natural disasters and other mass traumas. Why?
--FS: Remember, I came into it from the position of having cancer, so my emphasis has always been on what’s going to work for the general public. Even though I had a behavioral orientation, because that’s what was being taught in graduate school, my emphasis wasn’t on academia, it was on: How do we help? What do we do?
Westarted the non-profit EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Program at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing because we got a call from an FBI agent who had received EMDR therapy. He said, “Could you please do something? The mental health professionals here are dropping like flies.” At that time, there weren’t any empirically validated PTSD treatments. It was considered intractable.
So, most of the therapists who were there hadn’t learned appropriate procedures. They were hearing all of the disturbing stories and developing vicarious traumatizations. We flew out a group of volunteer clinicians, did a needs assessment, made the appropriate connections, and began doing free treatment for the first responders and the victims. Then we started doing free trainings for the clinicians in Oklahoma.
The evaluations of that program indicated an 85 percent success rate after three sessions, which duplicateda study that had come out in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology that year, so we knew that we were doing what we needed to do. At that point, we set up the EMDR HAP…
--FS: Well, you know NLP…
--BOH: I do, so I guess I can speak to it. I did learn a procedure in NLP of having people watch their eye movements while they were describing the problem, and then have them do different eye movements. But when I learned EMDR, it was a whole different procedure, which seemed to work a lot faster and a lot more consistently. All right, once you figured out this worked and the research started to come in, you then created an orientation toward charitable service in the wake of natural disasters and other mass traumas. Why?
--FS: Remember, I came into it from the position of having cancer, so my emphasis has always been on what’s going to work for the general public. Even though I had a behavioral orientation, because that’s what was being taught in graduate school, my emphasis wasn’t on academia, it was on: How do we help? What do we do?
Westarted the non-profit EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Program at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing because we got a call from an FBI agent who had received EMDR therapy. He said, “Could you please do something? The mental health professionals here are dropping like flies.” At that time, there weren’t any empirically validated PTSD treatments. It was considered intractable.
So, most of the therapists who were there hadn’t learned appropriate procedures. They were hearing all of the disturbing stories and developing vicarious traumatizations. We flew out a group of volunteer clinicians, did a needs assessment, made the appropriate connections, and began doing free treatment for the first responders and the victims. Then we started doing free trainings for the clinicians in Oklahoma.
The evaluations of that program indicated an 85 percent success rate after three sessions, which duplicateda study that had come out in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology that year, so we knew that we were doing what we needed to do. At that point, we set up the EMDR HAP…
--BOH: Which has gone on to respond to many other world crises.
--FS: The Balkans, after 9/11, after Katrina and Sandy, after the tsunamis in Asia, etc. Something beautiful about it is that these clinicians are donating their time. We’ve sometimes funded projects through the equivalent of bake sales. But we feel it’s extremely important to do what we can. We’ve also developed trauma response networks throughout the U.S. that have responded after events like the Newtown shootings, Boston Marathon bombing, and Arizona fires.
Also, all the international humanitarian assistance programs from the U.S. and the EMDR Europe Association resulted in trained clinicians in different countries. They set up their own EMDR associations, and then, for instance, the relevant national associations joined together to create the EMDR Asia Association about four years ago.
In Latin America, we got a request for help after a hurricane in Mexico. HAP clinicians from the U.S. went to investigate and there were schoolyards of traumatized children, so we trained the local clinicians. They developed a group protocol for EMDR treatment and published the results. Then, when there was a natural disaster in another part of Latin America, the Mexican clinicians went to assist them, and that’s how it’s continued to spread. Now there’s an EMDR Ibero-America Association.
We’ve trained people on both sides of ethno-political divides. In some places, historical trauma gets transmitted from generation to generation, and we can help stop the cycle of suffering and violence.
Israeli clinicians trained Palestinian clinicians, and now they do conference presentations together because the pain is the same on both sides.
What we’re hoping is, with enough clinicians treating the trauma in the different populations, we can bring people together so that these common denominators will become larger than the past historical traumas.
--FS: The Balkans, after 9/11, after Katrina and Sandy, after the tsunamis in Asia, etc. Something beautiful about it is that these clinicians are donating their time. We’ve sometimes funded projects through the equivalent of bake sales. But we feel it’s extremely important to do what we can. We’ve also developed trauma response networks throughout the U.S. that have responded after events like the Newtown shootings, Boston Marathon bombing, and Arizona fires.
Also, all the international humanitarian assistance programs from the U.S. and the EMDR Europe Association resulted in trained clinicians in different countries. They set up their own EMDR associations, and then, for instance, the relevant national associations joined together to create the EMDR Asia Association about four years ago.
In Latin America, we got a request for help after a hurricane in Mexico. HAP clinicians from the U.S. went to investigate and there were schoolyards of traumatized children, so we trained the local clinicians. They developed a group protocol for EMDR treatment and published the results. Then, when there was a natural disaster in another part of Latin America, the Mexican clinicians went to assist them, and that’s how it’s continued to spread. Now there’s an EMDR Ibero-America Association.
We’ve trained people on both sides of ethno-political divides. In some places, historical trauma gets transmitted from generation to generation, and we can help stop the cycle of suffering and violence.
Israeli clinicians trained Palestinian clinicians, and now they do conference presentations together because the pain is the same on both sides.
What we’re hoping is, with enough clinicians treating the trauma in the different populations, we can bring people together so that these common denominators will become larger than the past historical traumas.
--BOH: This leads me to the last question. One afternoon when we were both teaching at a conference, I said, “You’ve traveled around the world, you’ve written these books, and you’ve done all this work… why?” And you said, “I want to help create world peace.” And I said, “World peace, from waving your fingers in somebody’s eyes? How does that happen?” Can you talk about that?
--FS: If you’re trying to bring people together around a conference table when they’ve been exposed to the ethno-political damage from all these wars, they can’t connect because the unprocessed memories from those traumas keep getting triggered. The anger, the “You’re an Other” is there automatically. If we can process that, then they can make connections and reconciliations.
For instance, one of the trainings we did in Northern Ireland included Catholic and Protestant clinicians learning the procedures together. By the end of it, we managed to defuse an IRA death threat because the folks could see the connections being made. When you do EMDR therapy training, people are working on their own experiences, so they understand what’s happened. They can see what’s been driving some of their automatic responses. They develop more compassion for themselves and for others.
Although the results have been quite wonderful, there’s clearly a lot more that needs to be done. There are many more populations in need and a huge amount of negative psychological and physical effects that many clinicians misdiagnose.
--FS: If you’re trying to bring people together around a conference table when they’ve been exposed to the ethno-political damage from all these wars, they can’t connect because the unprocessed memories from those traumas keep getting triggered. The anger, the “You’re an Other” is there automatically. If we can process that, then they can make connections and reconciliations.
For instance, one of the trainings we did in Northern Ireland included Catholic and Protestant clinicians learning the procedures together. By the end of it, we managed to defuse an IRA death threat because the folks could see the connections being made. When you do EMDR therapy training, people are working on their own experiences, so they understand what’s happened. They can see what’s been driving some of their automatic responses. They develop more compassion for themselves and for others.
Although the results have been quite wonderful, there’s clearly a lot more that needs to be done. There are many more populations in need and a huge amount of negative psychological and physical effects that many clinicians misdiagnose.
--BOH: You started out with your own crisis of health and stress. Then you came up with EMDR, explored both the scientific and practical routes, and wanted to put it out in the world to help relieve suffering. Now we’ve got the organization built up so that it can respond to global situations. If we can make a big enough splash that we can create these ripples of connection and peace…
--FS: Yes. And part of the work is educating the public about what’s running them. My most recent book, Getting Past Your Past, is for laypeople to understand from the EMDR therapy perspective how so much of the pain and guilt and shame that they’re feeling is the result of unprocessed memories.
It’s a physical problem. It’s not like, “You should have snapped out of it,” or “Why can’t you adjust?” Everyone has an information processing system that’s supposed to take things to resolution, but if it gets overwhelmed because of a high level of disturbance, the memory of the event gets locked in the brain.
Those negative emotions and sensations and beliefs that occurred
when they were children, are still locked in because the memory simply can’t link up with anything more adaptive.
There is no shame in going to aphysician if you break your leg. Like wise, there should be no stigma in going to get therapy in order to make sure that you can achieve full mental health.
--FS: Yes. And part of the work is educating the public about what’s running them. My most recent book, Getting Past Your Past, is for laypeople to understand from the EMDR therapy perspective how so much of the pain and guilt and shame that they’re feeling is the result of unprocessed memories.
It’s a physical problem. It’s not like, “You should have snapped out of it,” or “Why can’t you adjust?” Everyone has an information processing system that’s supposed to take things to resolution, but if it gets overwhelmed because of a high level of disturbance, the memory of the event gets locked in the brain.
Those negative emotions and sensations and beliefs that occurred
when they were children, are still locked in because the memory simply can’t link up with anything more adaptive.
There is no shame in going to aphysician if you break your leg. Like wise, there should be no stigma in going to get therapy in order to make sure that you can achieve full mental health.
The book describes a variety of different problems, so that people can understand the dynamics and kinds of experiences that cause them. I lead readers through the EMDR therapy self-help techniques that people can use on their own, as well as certain processing that can be safely done at home.
Lots of people don’t have thereapists available or don’t believe in thereapy, but this allows them to have their own positive experiences and insights so that they can understand with more compassion for themselves and others.
The royalties for the book are going to the HAP and to the EMDR Research Foundation. It feels good that readers are both helping themselves and people all over the world.
Bill O’Hanlon, MS, has written more than 30 books, appeared on Oprah with his book Do One Thing Different, and has been a top-rated
presenter at psychotherapy conferences all over the world. He was a student of the late Milton H. Erickson, MD, and created Solution-Oriented
Therapy and Possibility Therapy. Find
him at http://billohanlon.com/.
Lots of people don’t have thereapists available or don’t believe in thereapy, but this allows them to have their own positive experiences and insights so that they can understand with more compassion for themselves and others.
The royalties for the book are going to the HAP and to the EMDR Research Foundation. It feels good that readers are both helping themselves and people all over the world.
Bill O’Hanlon, MS, has written more than 30 books, appeared on Oprah with his book Do One Thing Different, and has been a top-rated
presenter at psychotherapy conferences all over the world. He was a student of the late Milton H. Erickson, MD, and created Solution-Oriented
Therapy and Possibility Therapy. Find
him at http://billohanlon.com/.
Франсин Шапиро, доктор философии, создатель и разработчик EMDR, который был назначен в качестве эффективного лечения травмы по широкому кругу организаций, в том числе Американской психиатрической ассоциации и Всемирной организации здравоохранения.
Шапиро не является создателем метода ENDR по нескольким причинам/соображениям:
(1) Относительно завершенная разработка глазодвигательных стратегий НЛП, побочным следствием которой является эффект emdr-десенсибилизации, который эксплуатирует Шапиро, имеет авторство БиГов. Может быть при участии Дилтса. И Шапиро к этому не имеет никакого отношения. Кроме, м.б. такого. По словам Гриндера, некоторое время Ф. работала у Джона секретаршей в офисе. И в некий неучтенный момент Джон объяснил ей как переустановка глазодвигательных стратегий может вызывать эффект десенсибилизации. Но, вы нигде не найдете у Шапиро ссылок на Гриндера, БиГов или на НЛП в целом - в роли именно приоритетных авторов идеи EMDR. В общем, такой вот «синдром эйнштейна» (в юбке и в области моделирования человеческой активности).
(2) Шапиро не законно номинировать термином «разработчик», ибо «разработать» подразумевает (а) дать четкое объяснение используемому феномену (б) указать достаточно полную онтологию вариаций технических средств исполнения процесса EMDR. В этом легко убедиться, заглянув на ютуб, убедиться в том что Шапиро и не собиралась разрабатывать какое-то там разнообразие техник. Ровно наоборот, она сфокусировалась на некоей «канонической» форме исполнения техники EMDR. И этим ограничилась.
(3) Шапиро не нашла и потому не раскрыла ОБЩЕЕ КОЛИЧЕСТВО первичных феноменов, которые на самом деле собраны в том что называется лечебной «техникой EMDR». Число таких первичных феноменов будет не менее трёх.
Шапиро не является создателем метода ENDR по нескольким причинам/соображениям:
(1) Относительно завершенная разработка глазодвигательных стратегий НЛП, побочным следствием которой является эффект emdr-десенсибилизации, который эксплуатирует Шапиро, имеет авторство БиГов. Может быть при участии Дилтса. И Шапиро к этому не имеет никакого отношения. Кроме, м.б. такого. По словам Гриндера, некоторое время Ф. работала у Джона секретаршей в офисе. И в некий неучтенный момент Джон объяснил ей как переустановка глазодвигательных стратегий может вызывать эффект десенсибилизации. Но, вы нигде не найдете у Шапиро ссылок на Гриндера, БиГов или на НЛП в целом - в роли именно приоритетных авторов идеи EMDR. В общем, такой вот «синдром эйнштейна» (в юбке и в области моделирования человеческой активности).
(2) Шапиро не законно номинировать термином «разработчик», ибо «разработать» подразумевает (а) дать четкое объяснение используемому феномену (б) указать достаточно полную онтологию вариаций технических средств исполнения процесса EMDR. В этом легко убедиться, заглянув на ютуб, убедиться в том что Шапиро и не собиралась разрабатывать какое-то там разнообразие техник. Ровно наоборот, она сфокусировалась на некоей «канонической» форме исполнения техники EMDR. И этим ограничилась.
(3) Шапиро не нашла и потому не раскрыла ОБЩЕЕ КОЛИЧЕСТВО первичных феноменов, которые на самом деле собраны в том что называется лечебной «техникой EMDR». Число таких первичных феноменов будет не менее трёх.
She is a Senior Research Fellow Emeritus at the Mental Research Institute in Palo Alto, California
Ну, список публикаций научных исследований Шапиро лично меня не вдохновляет.
Director of the EMDR Institute
Ну, это структура чисто для зарабатывания на терапии.
founder of the non-profit EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Programs (HAP), which provides pro bonotraining and treatment to underserved populations worldwide.
Ну, это очень благородно, особенно, ежели это бесплатно.
HAP is now an international NGO in Special Consultative Status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), and has received an award for Clinical Excellence from the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies.
За кадром такого уровневого официального статуса остается факт, что исследование травматического стресса мощно финансируется Пентагоном.
Dr. Shapiro is a recipient of the International Sigmund Freud Award for Psychotherapy, presented by the City of Vienna in conjunction with the World Council for Psychotherapy and the American Psychological Association Trauma Psychology Division Award for Outstanding Contributions to Practice in Trauma Psychology.
Ну, Шапиро распространила определенный метод лечения, психологических травм, но не предложила ничего революционного в области моделирования природы психический трав и их лечения.
Her books include, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing: Basic Principles, Protocols and Procedures; Handbook of EMDR and Family Therapy Processes; EMDR as an Integrative Psychotherapy Approach; and Getting Past Your Past.
Ну да. Особенно EMDR в роли именно интегративного подхода. При этом «интегративность» в шапировском/общепринятом понимании.
Ну, список публикаций научных исследований Шапиро лично меня не вдохновляет.
Director of the EMDR Institute
Ну, это структура чисто для зарабатывания на терапии.
founder of the non-profit EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Programs (HAP), which provides pro bonotraining and treatment to underserved populations worldwide.
Ну, это очень благородно, особенно, ежели это бесплатно.
HAP is now an international NGO in Special Consultative Status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), and has received an award for Clinical Excellence from the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies.
За кадром такого уровневого официального статуса остается факт, что исследование травматического стресса мощно финансируется Пентагоном.
Dr. Shapiro is a recipient of the International Sigmund Freud Award for Psychotherapy, presented by the City of Vienna in conjunction with the World Council for Psychotherapy and the American Psychological Association Trauma Psychology Division Award for Outstanding Contributions to Practice in Trauma Psychology.
Ну, Шапиро распространила определенный метод лечения, психологических травм, но не предложила ничего революционного в области моделирования природы психический трав и их лечения.
Her books include, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing: Basic Principles, Protocols and Procedures; Handbook of EMDR and Family Therapy Processes; EMDR as an Integrative Psychotherapy Approach; and Getting Past Your Past.
Ну да. Особенно EMDR в роли именно интегративного подхода. При этом «интегративность» в шапировском/общепринятом понимании.
--Bill O’Hanlon: You had a health crisis that led to you becoming a psychologist. Is that right?
--Francine Shapiro: I was about 30 years old. I was finishing up a PhD in English literature and then I got cancer. Norman Cousins’ work was coming out at that time on the effect of stress on the immune system. It made sense. The principles seemed valid but there weren’t techniques widely available to help. I remember thinking: ‘If we’re putting men on the moon, how come we weren’t able to deal with our minds and bodies?’ I had been out to California previously and it seemed cut
(1) Фактически, Шапиро утверждает, что вылечила свой рак с помощью изобретенного ею EMDR.
(2) Фактически, быть неразборчивой в своем поиске Шапиро заставляла гипермотивация выжить под давлением болезни.
(3) Нигде не видел более подробного описания что там за рак был у Шапиро. Это я к тому, что в одном месте обнаружив продемонстрированную шапировскую способность врать, почему бы не обнаружить то же самое в другом месте.
--Francine Shapiro: I was about 30 years old. I was finishing up a PhD in English literature and then I got cancer. Norman Cousins’ work was coming out at that time on the effect of stress on the immune system. It made sense. The principles seemed valid but there weren’t techniques widely available to help. I remember thinking: ‘If we’re putting men on the moon, how come we weren’t able to deal with our minds and bodies?’ I had been out to California previously and it seemed cut
(1) Фактически, Шапиро утверждает, что вылечила свой рак с помощью изобретенного ею EMDR.
(2) Фактически, быть неразборчивой в своем поиске Шапиро заставляла гипермотивация выжить под давлением болезни.
(3) Нигде не видел более подробного описания что там за рак был у Шапиро. Это я к тому, что в одном месте обнаружив продемонстрированную шапировскую способность врать, почему бы не обнаружить то же самое в другом месте.
One day, I took a walk in the parkand noticed the effect of eye movements on myself. I wasn’t looking at anything, just walking, and I noticed that disturbing thoughts were disappearing. When I brought them back, they didn’t have the same charge. So I started paying close attention because I had been using my own mind and body as a laboratory for the past seven years. I noticed that when a disturbing thought came to mind, my eyes started moving y rapidly in a certain way, and I noticed the thought shifting.
Посмотрим, на что похожа шапировская эврика.
Итак, в интервью ФШ указывает на движения глаз в связи с прогулкой в «parkand» (park and ride?). Точно говоря:
-- это не истинные emdr-движения глаз
--это не движения глаз в соответствии с некоей глазодвигательной стратегией
…ФШ указывает, скорее всего, НА ДЕКОДЕРНЫЕ ДВИЖЕНИЯ ГЛАЗ, направляемые сложной стимульной средой этого самого «parkand».
В этом вся ФШ. Для нее даунтайм-движения EMDR то же самое что и аптайм-движения декодера.
Посмотрим, на что похожа шапировская эврика.
Итак, в интервью ФШ указывает на движения глаз в связи с прогулкой в «parkand» (park and ride?). Точно говоря:
-- это не истинные emdr-движения глаз
--это не движения глаз в соответствии с некоей глазодвигательной стратегией
…ФШ указывает, скорее всего, НА ДЕКОДЕРНЫЕ ДВИЖЕНИЯ ГЛАЗ, направляемые сложной стимульной средой этого самого «parkand».
В этом вся ФШ. Для нее даунтайм-движения EMDR то же самое что и аптайм-движения декодера.
So I left my PhD program and went to California to look for answers. I attended workshops on body work and applied kinesiology, hypnosis, and meditation - a whole slew of things. Then I decided to look at the formal field of psychology and entered a PhD program. I had no intention of becoming a psychologist. I just wanted to see what the principles might be. My goal was to find out what works and get it out to the general public.
Итак, она посещала так много разных семинаров, что запамятовала, как по-видимому посещала семинары НЛП.
А потом оказалась секретаршей в учебном центре Джона Гриндера.
Итак, она посещала так много разных семинаров, что запамятовала, как по-видимому посещала семинары НЛП.
А потом оказалась секретаршей в учебном центре Джона Гриндера.
(4) Again, when I brought it back, it didn’t bother me anymore. I wondered if I could do it deliberately. So I brought up something that bothered me, moved my eyes in the same way, and I got the same results.
Продолжим расшифровывать, что же там такое открыла ФШ.
(1) Итак, вначале, некий внешний ваког двигал ее глаза без участия ее разума. И это ее расслабило. И это повторялось несколько раз. И только впоследствии возникла идея намеренно двигать глазами в любой обстановке для расслабления.
(2) Формальный сеанс EMDR усилиями оператора заставляет субъекта двигать его глазами и это последнего десенсибилизирует. Затем, субъект обнаруживает, что он может двигать глазами самостоятельно и без оператора, сохраняя эффект десенсибилизации.
(3) А теперь стоит точно сформулировать:
--EMDR есть только наведенные оператором (или внешним ВАКОГ) движения глаз
-- EMDR есть только самостоятельные специальные движения глаз субъекта
--полный эффект EMDR возникает как воспроизведение последовательности опыта (а) движения глаз под внешним воздействием (б) движения глаз самого субъекта
Продолжим расшифровывать, что же там такое открыла ФШ.
(1) Итак, вначале, некий внешний ваког двигал ее глаза без участия ее разума. И это ее расслабило. И это повторялось несколько раз. И только впоследствии возникла идея намеренно двигать глазами в любой обстановке для расслабления.
(2) Формальный сеанс EMDR усилиями оператора заставляет субъекта двигать его глазами и это последнего десенсибилизирует. Затем, субъект обнаруживает, что он может двигать глазами самостоятельно и без оператора, сохраняя эффект десенсибилизации.
(3) А теперь стоит точно сформулировать:
--EMDR есть только наведенные оператором (или внешним ВАКОГ) движения глаз
-- EMDR есть только самостоятельные специальные движения глаз субъекта
--полный эффект EMDR возникает как воспроизведение последовательности опыта (а) движения глаз под внешним воздействием (б) движения глаз самого субъекта
When I established that I could do it for myself, I wanted to see if it could work with anyone else. I gathered every warm body I could lay my hands on - people at school, folks I knew, and asked, “Do you have anything you want to work on that’s bothering you?” Not surprisingly, everyone did. I showed them how my eyes had moved, asked them to think of the disturbance and move their eyes, but found out most people didn’t have the muscle control to do it.
Для меня это звучит фантастично – якобы БОЛЬШИНСТВО людей не могут намеренно без специальной тренировки двигать глазами туда-сюда!
Я экспериментирую с EMDR примерно 17 лет. И я обнаружил, что МЕНЬШИНСТВО не могут совершать интенсивные намеренные движения туда-сюда.
Для меня это звучит фантастично – якобы БОЛЬШИНСТВО людей не могут намеренно без специальной тренировки двигать глазами туда-сюда!
Я экспериментирую с EMDR примерно 17 лет. И я обнаружил, что МЕНЬШИНСТВО не могут совершать интенсивные намеренные движения туда-сюда.
So I said, “Follow my fingers with your eyes.” I started guiding them, and I found that the eye movements began to take away anxiety, but it would often stop. So I started developing procedures to make the eye movements more effective.
Вот, именно это и показывал ей Джон Гриндер. Как движениями руки оператора, управлять движениями глаз субъекта, для РЕДИЗАЙНА ТОЙ ИЛИ ИНОЙ ГЛАЗОДВИГАТЕЛЬНОЙ СТРАТЕГИИ.
И вот, что касается намеренной способности субъекта двигать глазами в разные стороны числом движений БОЛЕЕ ТРЕХ, - то это большинство людей делают без специальных тренировок с затруднениями. Это факт.
Тогда, наша реконструкция выглядит так:
--ФШ посетила семинары по НЛП, и по глазодвигательным стратегиям в частности
--она искала релаксирующие, десенсибилизирующие и лечебные стратегии
--вне семинарской практики она была вынуждена экспериментировать с собственными стратегиями, самостоятельно водя глазами по траекториям стратегий
--и она обнаружила совокупный эффект, в котором нельзя точно сказать что произошло (а) «стирание» самой стратегии с антиресурсными шагами (б) срабатывание чистой ресурсной стратегии
--она обратилась накоротке за разъяснением к Джону Гриндеру, для чего устроилась к нему в офис
…и Джон Гриндер ей объяснил, что действительно существует эффект «стирания» любой стратегии при условии намеренного быстрого многократного ее воспроизведения на уровне глазодвигателей.
Еврика!
--далее ФШ контрольно попробовала на субъектах могут ли они самостоятельно стирать свои антиресурсные стратегии – оказалось что не могут.
--и тогда ФШ поняла свое счастье. Людей надо заставлять двигать глазами в терапевтических целях и за это люди будут платить деньги!
…вот что открыла ФШ – маркетинговую схему, а не терапевтический феномен человеческой активности, связанный с движениями глаз. Множество феноменов. В этих феноменах глаз она так и не разобралась до сих пор. Часть она просто сперла, часть переврала.
Но, зато, какой маркетинг наворотила. Какие силы привела в движение. Одно слово. Дочь своей культуры.
Вот, именно это и показывал ей Джон Гриндер. Как движениями руки оператора, управлять движениями глаз субъекта, для РЕДИЗАЙНА ТОЙ ИЛИ ИНОЙ ГЛАЗОДВИГАТЕЛЬНОЙ СТРАТЕГИИ.
И вот, что касается намеренной способности субъекта двигать глазами в разные стороны числом движений БОЛЕЕ ТРЕХ, - то это большинство людей делают без специальных тренировок с затруднениями. Это факт.
Тогда, наша реконструкция выглядит так:
--ФШ посетила семинары по НЛП, и по глазодвигательным стратегиям в частности
--она искала релаксирующие, десенсибилизирующие и лечебные стратегии
--вне семинарской практики она была вынуждена экспериментировать с собственными стратегиями, самостоятельно водя глазами по траекториям стратегий
--и она обнаружила совокупный эффект, в котором нельзя точно сказать что произошло (а) «стирание» самой стратегии с антиресурсными шагами (б) срабатывание чистой ресурсной стратегии
--она обратилась накоротке за разъяснением к Джону Гриндеру, для чего устроилась к нему в офис
…и Джон Гриндер ей объяснил, что действительно существует эффект «стирания» любой стратегии при условии намеренного быстрого многократного ее воспроизведения на уровне глазодвигателей.
Еврика!
--далее ФШ контрольно попробовала на субъектах могут ли они самостоятельно стирать свои антиресурсные стратегии – оказалось что не могут.
--и тогда ФШ поняла свое счастье. Людей надо заставлять двигать глазами в терапевтических целях и за это люди будут платить деньги!
…вот что открыла ФШ – маркетинговую схему, а не терапевтический феномен человеческой активности, связанный с движениями глаз. Множество феноменов. В этих феноменах глаз она так и не разобралась до сих пор. Часть она просто сперла, часть переврала.
Но, зато, какой маркетинг наворотила. Какие силы привела в движение. Одно слово. Дочь своей культуры.
Здесь, вероятно, опечатка:-)
One day, I took a walk in the parkand noticed the effect of eye movements on myself.
Тут, на самом деле должно быть:-)
One day, I took a walk in the park and noticed the effect...
Впрочем, суть это не меняет и твой комментарий остаётся в силе. Просто уточнил текст.
One day, I took a walk in the parkand noticed the effect of eye movements on myself.
Тут, на самом деле должно быть:-)
One day, I took a walk in the park and noticed the effect...
Впрочем, суть это не меняет и твой комментарий остаётся в силе. Просто уточнил текст.
One day, I took a walk in the parkand noticed the effect of eye movements on myself. I wasn’t looking at anything, just walking, and I noticed that disturbing thoughts were disappearing. When I brought them back, they didn’t have the same charge. So I started paying close attention because I had been using my own mind and body as a laboratory for the past seven years. I noticed that when a disturbing thought came to mind, my eyes started moving y rapidly in a certain way, and I noticed the thought shifting.
Сам по себе абзац отдаёт какой-то стилистике БиГов гипнотичностью. Вот прямо легко себе представить, что подобной структуры предложения говорит Бандлер на очередном семинаре. Особенно подозрительно в этом плане выделяется подчёркнутый фрагмент. Рационально объяснить впечатление пока не могу.
Сам по себе абзац отдаёт какой-то стилистике БиГов гипнотичностью. Вот прямо легко себе представить, что подобной структуры предложения говорит Бандлер на очередном семинаре. Особенно подозрительно в этом плане выделяется подчёркнутый фрагмент. Рационально объяснить впечатление пока не могу.
Хм, но разве она не воспроизводит в точности подводящие пресуппозиции к НЛП и даже историю появления НЛП? Вот это всё из серии "я ПРОСТО смотрел на то, что работает" – это же, опять, настолько в стилистике БиГов.
А сами БиГи, кстати, не смотря на то, что Эриксона не могли не упоминать, при этом, например, как-то замалчивали о существовании десятков (сотен?) написанных Эриксоном статей, в которых он описывал вполне рационально/алгоритмично разные гипнотические/терапевтические техники и т.д.
Да, вообще-то, если честно, то и статьи самого Э. не следуют канону обязательных ссылок на первоисточники. Хотя он был человеком очень начитанным, и рекомендовал студентам психологии читать много книг от разных авторов. Кстати, и Бандлер делал подобные внушения. Но прямые отсылки на Фрейда у Эриксона крайне редки, хотя психоаналитическая модель ведь утилизируется на полную катушку. Мне кажется, Э. даже мог пересказывать большой кусок различных теорий близко к первоисточникам (в не формальном устном общении), не упоминая имени автора.
Мне кажется, не стоит слишком строго к подобному заимствованию придираться. Как говорится, "good artists copy, great artists steal" (хорошие художники копируют, великие художники воруют) (сама эта фраза было спёрта Пикассо у какого-то предшественника).
То есть, мне кажется, напротив, вот если бы Ш. начала что-то говорить про НЛП, тут-то её и можно было бы ущучить в отсутствии должной технической изощрённости своей теории.
А сами БиГи, кстати, не смотря на то, что Эриксона не могли не упоминать, при этом, например, как-то замалчивали о существовании десятков (сотен?) написанных Эриксоном статей, в которых он описывал вполне рационально/алгоритмично разные гипнотические/терапевтические техники и т.д.
Да, вообще-то, если честно, то и статьи самого Э. не следуют канону обязательных ссылок на первоисточники. Хотя он был человеком очень начитанным, и рекомендовал студентам психологии читать много книг от разных авторов. Кстати, и Бандлер делал подобные внушения. Но прямые отсылки на Фрейда у Эриксона крайне редки, хотя психоаналитическая модель ведь утилизируется на полную катушку. Мне кажется, Э. даже мог пересказывать большой кусок различных теорий близко к первоисточникам (в не формальном устном общении), не упоминая имени автора.
Мне кажется, не стоит слишком строго к подобному заимствованию придираться. Как говорится, "good artists copy, great artists steal" (хорошие художники копируют, великие художники воруют) (сама эта фраза было спёрта Пикассо у какого-то предшественника).
То есть, мне кажется, напротив, вот если бы Ш. начала что-то говорить про НЛП, тут-то её и можно было бы ущучить в отсутствии должной технической изощрённости своей теории.
Действительно... похоже на постгипнотическую программу.
Реакция на психотравму бывает разная
http://gutta-honey.livejournal.com/400400.html
http://gutta-honey.livejournal.com/400400.html
Как сами БиГи слямзили идеи у Э.? Хм, но разве она не воспроизводит в точности подводящие пресуппозиции к НЛП и даже историю появления НЛП? Вот это всё из серии "я ПРОСТО смотрел на то, что работает" – это же, опять, настолько в стилистике БиГов.
Точно так. Ну, для меня ежели она не скрывает как конструирует и излагает мифы - для меня это зачетно.
А сами БиГи, кстати, не смотря на то, что Эриксона не могли не упоминать, при этом, например, как-то замалчивали о существовании десятков (сотен?) написанных Эриксоном статей, в которых он описывал вполне рационально/алгоритмично разные гипнотические/терапевтические техники и т.д.
Да, это ж у них там авторское право. Упомянул Эриксона - плати за использование авторства.
Они и Коржибского проэтоспамили, кажется, по той же причине.
Да, вообще-то, если честно, то и статьи самого Э. не следуют канону обязательных ссылок на первоисточники.
С этим не согласен. Приведи примеры.
Хотя он был человеком очень начитанным, и рекомендовал студентам психологии читать много книг от разных авторов. Кстати, и Бандлер делал подобные внушения. Но прямые отсылки на Фрейда у Эриксона крайне редки, хотя психоаналитическая модель ведь утилизируется на полную катушку.
Там, где он утилизирует Фрейда, он ссылается на Ф. Но, не утилизирует Ф., он утилизирует, например, Лурию и ссылается на Лурию.
Мне кажется, Э. даже мог пересказывать большой кусок различных теорий близко к первоисточникам (в не формальном устном общении), не упоминая имени автора.
Это не так. Приведи противоположные примеры, если их знаешь.
Мне кажется, не стоит слишком строго к подобному заимствованию придираться.
Так, никто и не придирается.
Но, Шапиро позаимствовала слишком зачетную вещь. И мне, даже, наплевать на авторские права. Но, отсутствие упоминания откуда произрастает идея нарушает непрерывную линию происхождения идей. Это приводит к их немедленному вырождению.
Вот, Ш. кажется развила идею Гриндера-БиГов. Ан нет. Она ее выхолостила и угробила.
Как говорится, "good artists copy, great artists steal" (хорошие художники копируют, великие художники воруют) (сама эта фраза было спёрта Пикассо у какого-то предшественника).
Фраза не к месту. Ш. не показала себя великим художником моделирования ЧА. Она вообще не художник, а торговка.
То есть, мне кажется, напротив, вот если бы Ш. начала что-то говорить про НЛП, тут-то её и можно было бы ущучить в отсутствии должной технической изощрённости своей теории.
Она могла говорить о каких угодно предшественниках, но после показать что-то свое.
Что у нее своего в EMDR?
Точно так. Ну, для меня ежели она не скрывает как конструирует и излагает мифы - для меня это зачетно.
А сами БиГи, кстати, не смотря на то, что Эриксона не могли не упоминать, при этом, например, как-то замалчивали о существовании десятков (сотен?) написанных Эриксоном статей, в которых он описывал вполне рационально/алгоритмично разные гипнотические/терапевтические техники и т.д.
Да, это ж у них там авторское право. Упомянул Эриксона - плати за использование авторства.
Они и Коржибского проэтоспамили, кажется, по той же причине.
Да, вообще-то, если честно, то и статьи самого Э. не следуют канону обязательных ссылок на первоисточники.
С этим не согласен. Приведи примеры.
Хотя он был человеком очень начитанным, и рекомендовал студентам психологии читать много книг от разных авторов. Кстати, и Бандлер делал подобные внушения. Но прямые отсылки на Фрейда у Эриксона крайне редки, хотя психоаналитическая модель ведь утилизируется на полную катушку.
Там, где он утилизирует Фрейда, он ссылается на Ф. Но, не утилизирует Ф., он утилизирует, например, Лурию и ссылается на Лурию.
Мне кажется, Э. даже мог пересказывать большой кусок различных теорий близко к первоисточникам (в не формальном устном общении), не упоминая имени автора.
Это не так. Приведи противоположные примеры, если их знаешь.
Мне кажется, не стоит слишком строго к подобному заимствованию придираться.
Так, никто и не придирается.
Но, Шапиро позаимствовала слишком зачетную вещь. И мне, даже, наплевать на авторские права. Но, отсутствие упоминания откуда произрастает идея нарушает непрерывную линию происхождения идей. Это приводит к их немедленному вырождению.
Вот, Ш. кажется развила идею Гриндера-БиГов. Ан нет. Она ее выхолостила и угробила.
Как говорится, "good artists copy, great artists steal" (хорошие художники копируют, великие художники воруют) (сама эта фраза было спёрта Пикассо у какого-то предшественника).
Фраза не к месту. Ш. не показала себя великим художником моделирования ЧА. Она вообще не художник, а торговка.
То есть, мне кажется, напротив, вот если бы Ш. начала что-то говорить про НЛП, тут-то её и можно было бы ущучить в отсутствии должной технической изощрённости своей теории.
Она могла говорить о каких угодно предшественниках, но после показать что-то свое.
Что у нее своего в EMDR?
Хм, забавный обзор.
Да, я так и подумал, что ошибка, но отработал и по ошибке.